Exclusive Interview: Sam Outlaw

He’s the country music outlier who’s turned his back on tradition and created his very own genre. Rushonrock editor Simon Rushworth talks Mark Knopfler, Mutt Lange, the American Music Association and more with an outspoken Sam Outlaw.

Rushonrock: Why did you wait until you turned 33 before making music your full-time career?

Sam Outlaw: I think for all of the reasons that I question that decision every single day. I think playing music full time is an incredible privilege and the fact that anyone even knows I exist or wants to hear me play music live is such an incredible thrill. At the same time it’s really not a family friendly career and it’s not something that’s steady or consistent or reliable really. It’s not a meritocracy. So, in my 20s it was a case of keeping it at arm’s length knowing that a career in music always came with a lot of pitfalls. That was the number one thing. I would say that it was like a good old fashioned fear of the unknown but I think, in some ways, it was actually a fear of the known and a fear of the certain. Even if you are very, very successful in this business it’s still riddled with landmines and with too many stories of people who are far better put together than myself and yet have still suffered from it. That’s probably the simplest answer. The music business is just a barrel of monkeys!

Rushonrock: What persuaded you to take the plunge?

SO: I think when I got the opportunity to work with Ry Cooder on my debut album that seemed like a pretty big moment. Without that credibility he attached to my record there might be a fringe amount of people who might check out my music. But I was also aware that playing under my mother’s maiden name of Outlaw — that was going to throw people off because they thought I was giving myself this tough guy stage name. Also, being in LA at the time I was too country for LA but I was too fringe for Nashville. I really just didn’t have a lane that seemed sustainable in terms of a career. I think that was some of the frustration — where is there a real lane for me? I didn’t want to go and write on Music Row and I didn’t even want much to do with the American Music Association and I said to myself ‘I don’t want to join your dumb club’. You know what I mean? I didn’t want to be in the club because there’s always sacrifices you have to make artistically to stay in the club. I think that getting to work with Ry was a big moment and that helped a lot of people feel as if they could attach themselves to me who otherwise wouldn’t have done. That was a big step and the push I needed.

Rushonrock: is there anything you miss about your former career in corporate advertising?

SO: A lot. For instance, having a steady paycheck and the ability to work only a couple of hours a day and make plenty of money to feed myself and my family. There are so many good things about — not necessarily corporate life — but a non-artistic endeavour that make a lot of sense and that’s why most people do it. That said, there are thrills that I get to enjoy that I would never have got to experience in that career — mostly the chance to try it out and to say ‘I wonder if I do this if anybody will care’ and to say ‘I wonder if by doing this then people caring will be enough’. Then, of course, you end up discovering that it is both enough and never going to be enough. For me, music is all about writing a song, recording a song and performing a song. It’s great when other people like it but you have to like it yourself. Otherwise, there’s no point.

Rushonrock: Given your dual career path, would you advise emerging musicians to have a backup plan?

SO: I don’t necessarily think you need a backup plan but I would say ‘be prepared to fail’. If that perception of failure draws you to have a backup then great. If for you, the possibility of failure is the wind beneath your wings that you need to succeed then that’s great too. I would never encourage people getting into music. In fact, I think we should more actively discourage people getting into music. Then the people who still do it have to really want it. It’s like becoming a parent. I’m never going to tell you to get married and become a parent: you have to want that so bad and you have to have thought about it and wrestled with it so much. To reach that point and then realise you’re still, even after all of that, willing to go through with it, having considered all of the things that you could lose or gain, is all good. When you see those biopics about musicians or authors there are always those stories about the people who said ‘you’re never going to make it kid’. That’s a vital moment for that person. If it wasn’t for someone saying they weren’t going to make it then they couldn’t have found the fire within themselves to say ‘I’m going to do my damnedest anyway’. But I would never encourage anyone to pursue a career in music!

Rushonrock: Was 2021’s 80s-influenced Popular Mechanics album a gamble?

SO: At first I saw the new album as a gamble. And then I realised it was more of a gamble to stay in the safe zone. By me not getting to try the things I want to try and take the swings I want to take, I’d be sacrificing some of my own self in the hope that the people who already know about me would continue to know about me and like me. This is more about liking myself and making the record that I want to make rather than making the record that people are expecting me to make. There’s no genre like country or Americana where there are so many rules. I’ve only got a few of those comments along the lines of ‘I’ve listened to the new stuff and it’s not country music so I’m out’. And to all of those people I say ‘that’s great — I thank you for checking it out and for being honest’. If you want to listen to that kind of music then there are volumes and volumes of it waiting for you but for me I had to make a Sam Outlaw record. I never told people ‘I’m getting into this because I want to stick to the rules of a genre’ and make ‘paint by numbers’ music. I need to try things for myself. Enya was once asked ‘would you consider yourself new age music and what’s your genre’ and she replied, ‘my genre is Enya’. That’s maybe the way I feel moving forward. My genre is Sam Outlaw. If you want a Sam Outlaw record then I’ll never disappoint. If you want a country record then I could point you to some musicians who will never disappoint.

Rushonrock: Why did the 80s underpin Popular Mechanics to such an extent?

SO: Like any era or any time — and whether it’s music or movies — there’s good and bad and everything in between. I think the best of the 80s and the worst of the 80s are both kind of interesting to me. There’s stuff I like about very bombastic productions where there’s stuff happening all the time and I find that to be an interesting way of doing things. And there are some producers and some artists who found a way to be bombastic and also to be minimalist at the same time. That’s why I reference the Jeff Lynne-produced stuff by Tom Petty. There’s a lot going on that went into those recordings. There’s a tonne of overdubbing and things between the things, under the things and over the things and at the same time they managed to strike this balance where it never felt overloaded. When I listen back to the recording that I made with my producer Cheyenne [Medders] in Nashville, I hear where sometimes we kinda nailed it and sometimes we didn’t but we sure damn tried. I feel like the minute I figured out how to do country music in the way that I wanted to I was ready to do something else. Whether that’s going to work against me, ultimately, later in my career I don’t know but once I’ve figured something out I don’t really like to go ‘right let’s make three or four records of this thing that I’ve totally figured out’. It’s more exciting for me to kinda swing. And 80s music was probably the apex of the art and the technology coming together. There was a lot of it in the 70s but especially in the 80s it was a maximalist perspective. Obviously in our culture, in America, it was ‘how much can I have and how fast can I get it?’. I think that spirit and that attitude is why 80s music really speaks to me. They found a way to throw the kitchen sink at everything and when it works it really works.

Rushonrock: Is there a Dire Straits/Mark Knopfler tone underpinning For The Rest Of Our Lives?

SO: Totally. I think we were definitely going for an updated Knopfler thing. We layered like 18 Stratocasters into that song! I was also going for a little bit of the Bruce Hornsby sound on his second record Scenes From The Southside…but without making it a piano record because I can’t play piano! Knopfler, to me, has always been a guiding light in terms of doing pop music that’s interesting, a little asymmetrical and unexpected.

Rushonrock: One of the 80s producers you pay homage to on Popular Mechanics is Robert John ‘Mutt’ Lange. Why are you such a big fan?

SO: Mutt Lange made the most of everything. I don’t know how good Def Leppard would have sounded live in the mid 80s — and that’s a genuine question because I’ve never looked them up on YouTube. But whether he’s working with them or The Cars or Shania Twain, he took people who were no doubt talented and just gave them recordings that sounded like a billion dollars. It was like the record labels spent a billion dollars per song! I think that he just had a way of being able to square this intense fastidiousness on each track and also add in casual ideas. He could mix in this casualness and this gut reaction as to what pop music should be with this complete dedication and commitment to things being a certain way. I can relate to that. I want music to be fun and it’s ultimately about the hook. If you’ve got a good hook then that’s 90 per cent of it and that’s yours to mess up from that point! When you talk about Mutt Lange then Def Leppard are a great example. Just way too many great songs. You could probably have put any dumb lyrics in those songs and you’d probably still have a really, really good song. I just think Mutt cared about the right stuff but he also wanted to make hits and he wanted to make money. Even though I don’t have any pretentions that I’m going to ever make any money out of this — I’m someone who’s probably only lost money making music and touring — I still approach every song with the attitude that if this isn’t a memorable hook then what’s the point? Why waste my time with a song that’s only sort of memorable? I like that aspect of Mutt Lange and the 80s. That hitmaking passion and making as much money as you can creating art. I think that’s kinda cool.

Rushonrock: How does it feel to be back in the UK and back on the road?

SO: It feels very emotional. Our first show was in London and I think during the set I cried two or three times. It just feels like a big release. Every show is like a release. It’s all therapy. When you’ve got a full band maybe it’s about getting some rage out. When you’ve got a more pared down acoustic thing going on maybe it’s more to do with a romantic connection with the audience, your band mates, your songs and the lyrics. Either way playing music live is a thrill. There’s the adrenaline aspect and the emotional aspect of it. I wasn’t prepared for that rush coming back. I’m not playing arenas or anything where there are these massive shows and I’ve got thousands and thousands of people worshipping at the altar, so to speak. But the fact that anyone has come to these shows and is singing along — not just to the old songs but to the new ones too — feels great. Honestly, I feel intense gratitude for that. But it feels a lot harder than it did two-and-half years ago. Maybe that’s because I’m older or maybe that’s because my kids are at an age where they’re aware that dad’s gone away for a while. It takes more of a toll on my kids now because they’re so used to be being at home every day. It’s a relief, it’s exciting, it’s thrilling but it also feels like gravity weighs a little more heavily than it used to. I wouldn’t trade it, that’s for sure. I’m grateful for it and I’m going to try to keep doing it.